Not Resigning: Offering a solution

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Should these changes be made?

Poll ended at Sat September 6th, 2014 3:18 pm

Yes
45
73%
No
17
27%
 
Total votes: 62

Forge04
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Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Forge04 »

I was thinking about it tonight, about what needs to happen to right this ship. To fix this mess. To find what we the 12th Fleet have lost. The answer after my thinking is quite clear and simple, dealing with the three main branches that make up the core of what makes 12th Fleet so special.
  • FA/FXO
  • Instant kicks still allowed, though will be scrutinized by JAG.
  • Main purpose will to be to allow instant decision making capability when damage to the fleet as a whole is possible or occuring.
  • Otherwise merely a figurehead of the fleet.
  • Council
  • VA/RA will be voted in by division.
  • Can be demoted by division.
  • JAG
  • Reinstated = Members will be chosen by two methods. A) FA vote and 1/3 of the Council B) 2/3 Council vote.
  • Will have authority to issue strikes, with investigation made public, to anyone within the fleet.
  • Will scrub any new policy by the Council against the core fleet directives.
  • Will immediately investigate any kicks.
GENERAL POLICY CHANGES:
All closed divisions would be reopened.
JAG would be given the rights to issue strikes with investigation, evidence and judgement made public.
Division VA/RAs would be voted in by their own division, eliminating "good ol boys club" and misrepresentation in the Council.


These simple changes would immediately alleviate the current situation and would provide a means to fix the fleet in the long term. Things would mostly return to normal after several JAG members are decided upon. Many people who've left would probably come back, seeing this much change and bringing back the 12th that was in so many ways.

Feel free to comment or ask about clarification.

What do you, the fleet, think?
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Forge04
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Forge04 »

Post reserved by OPer.
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Baz
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Baz »

Firstly, I'm glad you're sticking around whilst offering a positive idea moving forward.

I have zero problem with this; it's concise, appropriate and a solution I could get behind. Other people have been posting similar suggestions, and I think there's some common themes that need addressing (a JAG-like entity, more member / command interaction) if we're to move forward.

Gets my vote.
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Sarah »

not going to vote, again as I sad no nothing, have no opinion. However wanted to say that I applaud you for offering a solution and trying to slavage the situation, not easy to stand back, not be reactionary. Really hoping this all calms down and sorts out for you guys

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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Zoltan417 »

Forge, I sent you a PM with some information you might be able to use to tweek this a bit. Most of it I really like. The division choosing their on VA, IMO, is a must.

My issues with the JAG section, I hope I explained clearly in the PM.

Thanks for the time you put into this.
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by MrKeserian »

So, bringing back the proposal I put up yesterday in one of the twenty-eight threads about this mess. These are proposed changes to the final JAG proposal that's sitting up in the "full disclosure" forum.

So, to continue what I posted in the Fleet section. I would like to propose a solution. I understand that I am just an ensign, and that I've only been here for a few weeks, but I see some places where we could extend the olive branch and try to solve this mess. In addition, I see some ways that we could resurrect the JAG proposal (which seemed to be close to implementation) and fix some of the issues that the Admirals had with it. Mostly, my proposal curtails the final decision making power of JAG by changing the composition of the appeals board, and instituting a process for disciplining and JAGs who step over the line.

1. The Fleet immediately extends an offer to all of the former officers who were booted out of the fleet to bring them back in at their former ranks, and without penalty. By now, I think we've all figured out (thanks to Cassie) that this entire, tragic, mess was due to a misunderstanding of intentions. Talking to a few of those removed from the Fleet, I don't think any of them had anything other than the best intentions for the Fleet, and none of them conspired or plotted to stage a "coup" against the FA or FXO. I understand that this is a lot to ask, but at the end of the day, these people are our friends, and we haven't exactly treated them very well.

2. JAG proposal "Trial Period" is immediately enacted with the following changes:

Under "Appealing a judgement," the line that states "The appeals panel shall be composed of three permanent members and two temporary members. The permanent members are the JAG Vice Admiral, the FXO, and the FA. In regards to the temporary members- One shall be chosen by either the FXO or FA, and the other member shall be chosen by the JAG Vice Admiral. Whenever possible, both members selected should be chosen with the mutual agreement of the other permanent member of the board. Both members shall be selected from Command (FC/RA/CA/VA) and will serve no more than one consecutive appeals case." Shall be removed. In its place, this inserted:

"The appeals panel shall be composed of a variable number of members, not to be more or less than the number of divisions in the 12th Fleet. Each Division VA, excluding the VA of the accused, shall appoint one member from their Division to sit on the appeals board. The selected member shall not be the VA or RA. The final position shall be filled by the FA, or FXO if the FA is unavailable. Each selected member shall not sit on more than one consecutive appeals case."

The following will be added to the end of 6. Removing a Member:

"In a case where the Instant Kick Rule is invoked, the case will immediately be referred to JAG, after the member has been kicked. JAG will then conduct a full investigation, and either sanction the removal, or reverse it. If the decision is reversed, the FA or FXO will have the ability to appeal the decision directly to an appeals panel, as outlined above, with the following change: the FA or FXO will not sit on the appeals board, instead, a Command Adviser will be requested to participate in the appeals process."

The following line will be added to the penultimate section, "Position of Trust of JAG Members:"

"Any member may submit a complaint against a member of JAG, to their Divisional Chain of Command, or directly to the Admiral's Council. The Council may then hold a vote to temporarily relieve the accused JAG member from their position, pending a formal investigation by the remainder of JAG. The JAG investigation shall be presented to the Council in an advisory capacity, and the Council must then vote to sanction the JAG member by a 3/4 margin. The FA or FXO will then be responsible for determining the sanctions placed against the offender."
Last edited by MrKeserian on Thu August 7th, 2014 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BravoKiloOne
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by BravoKiloOne »

i love the fact that people are putting thoughts and ideas out on how to resolve this situation, was one of the things that made me proud to be 12th. keep it up guys
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Mkvenner »

I am delighted to see something well thought out and constructive. I applaud your initiative. :)

I see where you are going with this, but have a few suggestions.
Forge04 wrote:
  • FA/FXO
  • Instant kicks still allowed, though will be scrutinized by JAG.
  • Main purpose will to be to allow instant decision making capability when damage to the fleet as a whole is possible or occuring.
  • Otherwise merely a figurehead of the fleet.


This would essentially render the roles down to mostly redundant, decorative law enforcers, which is not what the positions are about. They should also be involved in any debates, command decisions etc and advise/consult have some input in what happens. Not a 'manual override' or 'veto' per say, but something along those lines, if for no other reason than to keep things ticking over so that we don't lose everything to months of continual negotiation, re-hasing and endless jibber-jabber. So maybe just submit anything 'admiraltu approved' for a once over & sign off? However, with all due respect to Enterprise-D and Patrick, this will only work if our leaders are seen to lead, be involved and know what is going on at the normal ground level. I appreciate not every is chatty or comfortable in TS and/or may be busy and real life ALWAYS comes first. However a little more visible interaction would be a vast improvement and allay a lot of fears, even if it is simply to chip in a line or two in a random post on occasion. :)
Forge04 wrote:
  • Council
  • VA/RA will be voted in by division.
  • Can be demoted by division.
Absolutely. A few days ago a few of us were discussing this and suggested an election once every 6 months/year or so. No term limit, but just a way of checking everyone is happy with their CO at regular intervals. That way if VA/RA's are doing their jobs, nothing happens. If your VA/RA is letting the side down, that feeling is expressed in a suitably diplomatic and democratic and a suitable replacement found. Also, once voted in, you can obviously step down if real life steps in or you are just not feeling the role any more. You wont be chained to your post! :D Also trying to ensure an odd number of admirals should avoid or at least reduce any deadlocks.
Forge04 wrote:
  • JAG
  • Reinstated = Members will be chosen by two methods. A) FA vote and 1/3 of the Council B) 2/3 Council vote.
  • Will have authority to issue strikes, with investigation made public, to anyone within the fleet.
  • Will scrub any new policy by the Council against the core fleet directives.
  • Will immediately investigate any kicks.
Again, this was discussed amongst a few of us the other night. A hybrid of JAG and the new system was the most popular suggestion. With respect, this is a gaming community, not a real life legal system. There are no life changing results to an in game punt. Just maybe some different pixels. Your friends are still your friends and you will play together no matter what uniform you are wearing. JAG as was was far, far too complex and took far to long to resolve things. Every time there has been a fairly severe issue, it has dragged on for an age causing collateral damage to the fleet while it has been left to fester. On the other hand, can see how a few having absolute power, all be it pixel power ( a phrase I heard recently and have adopted! :) ) can be unnerving to some people. Hence why we suggested as noted in the new method, issues are dealt with by officers (and let us be honest, if an officer cannot handle a small complaint issue, they shouldn't be one... :shrug: ), escalating further as required. If following this procedure an impasse is reached or an appeal raised following a judgement, then and *Arbiter* could be called for. Rather than a constantly present JAG office that shuffles paper and pixels and debates points of law that have no place in a game (I hasten to add here, i mean NO disrespect to our former JAG members - you can chack my posts back to 2010 where i have always maintained the system was far too complex), you have an elected rep or two of any rank from each division who can act as Arbiters upon request and who form a panel when required. These Arbiters will have a duty to be impartial and independent. Think 'jury duty'. Now, anyone in the fleet can request any arbiter and one arbiter should be asked to attend for each side of the argument. A meeting is held and the issue discussed, a judgement made and carried out all in one sitting. Depending on the severity of the issue, if the arbiters consider it necessary, they can refer to/confer with the other arbiters and/or request further evidence if required. Although the details of the complaint remain undisclosed. the basics can be released once it is resolved. For example:

'A complaint was received about *incident/action A* (E.G. bad language in TS) and referred for arbitration. Having discussed the case, *judgenent B* (E.G. complaint upheld) has been decided on the basis of *evidence C*(E.G. statements from various witnesses) and so *action/sentence D* (a strike will be issued againt the defendant) will ensue/be carried out/no further action taken. etc

No names, no essays, no 6 month delays. Short, efficient, and fair without naming and shaming. Once made, the Arbiters' decisions are final and cannot be overturned.
Forge04 wrote: GENERAL POLICY CHANGES:
All closed divisions would be reopened.
JAG would be given the rights to issue strikes with investigation, evidence and judgement made public.
Division VA/RAs would be voted in by their own division, eliminating "good ol boys club" and misrepresentation in the Council.
If required/desired by members of the fleet.
JAG - See above

Thats about it i think.

Cheers for reading and again thanks to Forge for starting us off on a positive note! :bolian:
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by Kahn »

Kind of much like the Vote of no confidence, I think we should really get away from polls, and open it up more to a discussion format. It can only give the perceived notion that it will actually happen.

Aside from that, I would really like to see the divisions slim down. Much like Patrick was suggesting. Combine exploration and medical, and really SBO could easily be pushed into Engineering, or S31...

I kind of think having the fleet split up into so many sections just divides us as a whole, and we really need to come together as the 12th.

Anyway just a few thoughts I've had.
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MrKeserian
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Re: Not Resigning: Offering a solution

Post by MrKeserian »

I like the idea of arbiters, but I also like the idea of JAG acting as a counterbalance to the FA/FXO's authority. We leave JAG, but give them "arbitration" powers over minor incidents, with the requirement that they write up a report and file it away in a public subforum. First, it gives the members themselves oversight over the entire process, and second, it speeds up how long it takes to work out a response to an issue.

I really would like to see some ability remain for someone in command to kick a member who is causing a clear and present danger to our community (as rare as that might be), but I also want to see that automatically reviewed by JAG. Maybe instead of allowing a kick, maybe a demotion to a temporary, limited, member status. Sort of like how I am now as a recruit (in game), except maybe with the addition of a mandatory review on all posts on the forums (I don't know if our forum version supports that, but I'm fairly certain it should.)

Overall, I like your suggestions, and they're pretty similar to mine. Do you want me to try and combine them into a single working document with fancy language? I'd use the final JAG proposal as a template.
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